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Lightning Strikes Twice
For the Science Curious: Welcome to the Seattle Aquarium’s podcast where we get to spend a little extra time with the experts who appear during our Lightning Talks broadcasts.
Speakers are given a chance to expand beyond the ideas introduced in their 5 minute talks.
Lightning Strikes Twice
Wild seadragons with Nerida Wilson
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Seahorses and seadragons may be small, but they’re a big topic of conversation. Dive into the crucial work of monitoring wild seadragons with Nerida Wilson from the University of Western Australia. Nerida was a speaker at Lightning Talks: Seahorses and Seadragons (season 5, episode 4). Watch the original talk here.
Find more of Nerida Wilson's work here: seadragonsearch.org
Well, hello everyone, and welcome to Lightning Strikes Twice, the Seattle Aquarium's podcast, where we get to spend a little extra time with the experts who appear during our Lightning Talks broadcast. My name is Carrie Gerand, and I will be your host today. My pronouns are she and her, and I am an interpretation supervisor as well as a diver at the Seattle Aquarium. And I'm really excited today to introduce our guest. With us, we have Narita Wilson, who is a research fellow at the University of Western Australia. Welcome and thank you so much for joining us, Narada. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me again. Oh my gosh. Well, we're really excited to have you. And with the challenge of a time difference as well. As the evening is coming in here in Seattle, you are in what is turning out to be warmer. You're headed into your warmer summer months and joining us from Perth, Australia. So this is exciting that we were able to get this to line up so that we could talk to you a little bit more. Because the last that we heard from you was during our lightning talks that was all about seahorses and sea dragons. And for anybody listening, if you didn't get a chance yet, you can definitely check that out along with any of our past lightning talks on our Seattle Aquarium YouTube channel. But to sum it up, simply, you talked a lot about sea dragons and some really cool kind of community-engaged work that helps to monitor that species to better understand those populations. And you did get kind of the dreaded lightning bolt right at the very end of your presentation. And it's only five minutes, it's very short. So my first question for you today is what did you have to cut out? Or is there anything that you just wish you could add, you could add to today that you didn't get to have a chance to share about these amazing animals?
Speaker 2Yes, I I only got the lightning bolt right at the end. But you know, I could talk about sea dragons for hours. So, you know, I I needed that lightning bolt to tell me to stop. Yeah, gosh, there were so many good uh topics that we covered then, but I think uh I didn't get to talk much about the Ruby sea dragon. So hopefully we'll get a chance to chat about that later on.
Speaker 1Most definitely. And we do have a lot of questions kind of queued up and ready to go. And the Ruby Sea Dragon came up quite a bit because I know that was a species that was more recently described. And I admitted to you earlier that I had never heard of a Ruby sea dragon. I was like, there's leafies and there's Wheaties, and and and that's that, and hadn't ever heard of this other species. So I always think that's really exciting. And maybe there are some folks listening in the same boat as me that get to learn about these new animals that are out there, and really cool that you live and work in this space, that you have this like direct access to get to know these animals. And maybe just out of my own curiosity, you said that you could talk about sea dragons all day, that you just absolutely love them. Do you remember? Like, was there something that like hooked you with sea dragons like right from the get-go, that you were just like, these are just the best animals? And I need to know more about them.
Speaker 2Well, I have a bit of a confession to make in that area because I actually originally felt that passion and still do for neuter branks or sea slats. Ah, and uh yeah, so they were my first and enduring passion, but I learned to dive in an area where sea dragons lived. And so probably for the first year or two when I was diving, I would like push the sea dragons out of the way to get to the noodabranks, which is horrific when I think about it now. That's amazing.
Speaker 1You're like, excuse me, sea dragons, if you could just move, there's a beautiful Noodabrank right behind you.
Speaker 2Yeah, totally spoiled. But you know, over time, I just kind of had a greater appreciation for our native flora and fauna and started to understand just how endemic a lot of those species are in southern Australia and how they're found nowhere else. And yeah, there were two things that that got me more intrigued about sea dragons. One, I started using molecular genetics in my Neuterbrank work and then kind of just got curious about what we knew about the genetics of sea dragons, which turned out at the time very, very little. And so then I felt a bit compelled to get involved and understand more as kind of a bit of a service thing, and along the way, just became so besotted with these fish that yeah, just kept going. It was too late then.
Speaker 1You you're fully committed now. I mean, if you're looking at their genetics, I think you are pretty committed to uh understanding an animal. So, what do we know now? Then that's really a broad question. But we did have a question that was about like DNA sequencing and have we done that with sea dragons? Can you touch just a little bit on what that genetics work looks like, or kind of like where we're at, or maybe some of the cool things we have learned over the years?
Speaker 2Yeah, I guess one of the predictions would be from the way that sea dragons live, and that is that they're their little babies hatch out as mini sea dragons. So they don't have a larval phase that kind of flies around in the water column, maybe that that they so that we would predict that they would not disperse very far from where they were born. And so that would indicate that their populations would be highly structured. So if you're not getting immigration from one area to another, the genetic sort of pattern of an area becomes a bit unique to that spot. And so the genetics can help understand if that's true or not, if you if you know what I mean. So we did determine that yes, they they are quite heavily structured populations, and that has implications in the sense that if a local area becomes extinct, you don't expect new immigrants to come into that area again necessarily. So it means that the kind of conservation actions you need to do need to be quite specific to an area. Yeah, so it's one of those things where understanding kind of a kind of esoteric, you know, genetic thing actually can tell you information that's really quite useful for hands-on conservation work.
Speaker 1That's really cool. I was like, you're you're just leading me right into these all these guest questions. They had some questions also just about how are sea dragons doing? Like what are some of the things that they're up against? So if even if we're kind of talking about hypothetical, you know, that if if a certain group of them were to leave an area, but having that informed sort of decision-making process around like understanding where they are, where they're moving, you know, are there particular things that are a barrier or a challenge for sea dragons in particular that we can be like keeping an eye on? And really it to me, it bought it boils down to like, how can I help? Right? Like if we turn anybody from kind of like sea dragon curious to like sea dragon passionate, you know, really wanting to connect with these animals as an important part of the ecosystem.
Speaker 2Yeah, so like a lot of marine creatures, sea dragons live, you know, they're sort of close to the coast. They're very intimately connected with the places that we live in too, especially in Australia. Like most Australians live really close to the edge of the continent. So a lot of what we do has impact on those local areas. So some of the biggest issues that sea dragons face are things like pollution, especially with sort of stormwater runoff, but you know, pesticides, anything that we're using that runs into the ocean is quite difficult. Things like litter and rubbish, which again can be some of that washing in kind of stuff, but things like a fishing line is actually quite challenging. They can't see it all out well and can get entangled. So there's those sort of direct human kind of impacts. But there's obviously, you know, climate change is probably the the greatest threat to those animals. So as the waters warm around Australia, because sea dragons live along that temperate southern coastline, they don't have anywhere to move to. So lots of other animals are sort of now engaged in sort of distributional migration where they're they're being found, you know, further south or further north, depending on which hemisphere you're in, than they were before. But unfortunately, sea dragons don't have any options. So climate change, warming water, and those things are affecting things like emerging diseases or perhaps impacting reproduction. So we have sort of big global challenges, but then we also have local challenges that we can do something about directly. But but yeah, for people that don't live anywhere near the ocean, you know, anything you can do combating climate change is is something actually that will help sea dragons. So it's it's lovely to think of that global connectedness in that way.
Speaker 1And that that it just makes me it makes me think about just like how how connected we are, right? Like, you know, I think a really important first step is recognizing we are part of those ecosystems, not separate from. And so everything that we're doing directly impacts these animals. And we have a really large impact sometimes. And and what you shared about like runoff and pollution, it really resonates with me here in the Pacific Northwest, because that's something that's a really big challenge for our local salmon populations is living and passing through these incredibly urban areas where people have decided to settle, it's a challenge with what we might be putting into the environment. And ultimately, many things that we're putting into the environment is also influencing things like climate change as well. So I think that takeaway of recognizing how integral we are to these ecosystems and that our choices around what we're, you know, what we're washing our cars with and you know how we're commuting and getting around all of those, being conscious of them is really it's a wonderful first step. So all right. So thank you. And I also like to think that somehow in a little way, maybe some of the choices I'm making here in Seattle are helping the sea dragons off of Perth.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think it's a lovely thought. Yeah, yeah. And and vice versa, right? So I think we we can see a local area, but we can impact a big area too.
Speaker 1Yeah. So kind of like bringing our scope a little bit to the sea dragons, to those animals, and you know, where they live, they're right on the coastlines. There were some questions that came in just kind of about the natural history, you know, how how these animals are going about their life. Um, so some folks had questions about like do sea dragons live in groups? How deep are are they living? Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about like what that social structure and habitat looks like for a sea dragon.
Speaker 2Yeah, that that I could also talk about forever because it's really hard to predict a lot of these things. I think, you know, we some of the early studies that looked at sea dragon habitat are focused on east coast of Australia populations where there's a lot more kelp and rock and sponge, but then there are other places where it's just seagrass and they're also there. So it's it's very hard to sort of generalize about where they like to live. We know that they are often associated in these eclonia or golden kelp beds, sometimes in seagrass, sometimes near rocks and sponges. But within within an area, like if there's just a big area of seagrass, they might be in one place, but not, you know, like a hundred meters up the road. And I don't know why. And it keeps me awake at night. It's just you can swim around and around and around, and it's like they're in this place, but not this place. It's it's that's really interesting.
Speaker 1And so, like, not really, there's not really like something you can point out in terms of like habitat difference that this area has a you know better eelgrass or a better kelp forest, or this has different currents, or something that might influence their just choosing for whatever reason some sort of particular area that's really working for them. And it sounds like they they don't necessarily move around all that much either, that they often are kind of more site-specific.
Speaker 2Absolutely. And I think of them almost as being kind of little groups or little tribes that you know stay in a certain area, maybe not exactly the same area, and the same individuals don't inhabit exactly the same part of the area that the group inhabits all the time. So you might find one individual at one side of that patch on one day and right down the other side, like a few hundred meters away another time. So, so the move around within their chosen area, it could be because of food availability. And they do often, I think they they're quite visual animals, right? They hunt visually and they they see you, right? It's they're not um not cognisant of your you being there, but they they also seem to orient sometimes around features. So sometimes it might be a distinctive-looking rock might be at one end of the area that they like or a pier. There's lots of peers and jetties that they like to hang around the pylons. So they like features, you know. They I guess they're just orienting themselves as well. But it's oh, to get into the mind of a sea dragon and understand why they choose one spot. I love that.
Speaker 1Well, I won't ask you to try to get into the mind of a sea dragon, but speaking of hunting and foraging, how like are there certain like techniques that they're using? What are some of their prey items? You said they're really like tuned in visually to, you know, to their surroundings. Could you could you dig a little bit deeper into like what hunting looks like for a sea dragon?
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely, because they don't mind feeding in front of divers, you know, if they're not stressed. You'll see them do those sort of natural behaviors quite a bit. And they use their long snout to essentially, I guess a little bit like a straw, to suck up tiny mice and shrimps, but they they sort of enlarge an area at the base of that snout that sort of creates a suction. So it's a it's a quick snapping kind of a I mean, you can't see it. I'd love to film it, look it in real slow motion, but um, I'm sure National Geographic's done that at some point. But it's really cool because you see them just kind of strike. It's it's called a feeding strike. It's quite interesting when you see it. So they kind of just do this big jerky motion and and suck up a little tiny mice and shrimp. And it seems that probably living in areas that have maybe like a sand patch and then some weed, like having some contrast helps them see those mice shrimps because they do like to go along edges. And so I think probably being able to see the mice shrimps against a darker background, because they are visual predators. So they they hunt, they hunt these little crustaceans. It's very cute.
Speaker 1I was like, I have it. It's that it's so interesting to think about, you know, this. They're they're they're hunting these very tiny, like I mean, centimeters mice, like they're very, very small, but like thinking of them as voracious predators at the same time. They're out there hunting, but they themselves are not that big. I know we've got a couple of different kinds or species of sea dragons that we'll get to that in a second, because that's also another question. But is there like in general, like what are we talking about when we're talking about the size of a sea dragon? You know, what would we be looking for along those kelp beds and eelgrass beds?
Speaker 2Yeah, a lot of people who see sea dragons for the first time are surprised actually at how big they are. And usually it's the reverse, right? And people think, oh gosh, it's so tiny. But uh you'll find often reported in books that sea dragons can be around 45 centimeters long, but that's like the biggest, biggest, biggest. So typically that'd be more like 30 centimeters from sort of snout tip to tail tip. But the ones on the east coast of Australia tend to be a little bigger, the ones like from sort of Sydney down around Tasmania. And the ones from Melbourne and across to Perth are a little bit smaller, more scrappy. So yeah, but but they're not, you know, they're not tiny. They're not tiny, they're just very good at camouflaging. So I think that's why people don't see them, not because of the size.
Speaker 1And I just have to put out there for anybody like myself that didn't grow up in the metric system. 45 centimeters is about 17 inches. I did have to double check that, I'm not gonna lie. In my opinion, the metric system is where it's at. But it is hard if you didn't do those conversions on oh, you don't need to be sorry at all. But I can imagine some people being like, what is 45, 45 centimeters? I'm not quite sure how much that is. So we'll save them, we'll save them the Google 17-ish inches. We'll go with that. On that note, this feels like a great time to take a little break, but don't worry, we've got more questions to come. And so we're gonna jump back in and dig a little bit more into different kinds of sea dragons, learn a little bit more, some specifics on that. But stay tuned, stick with us, and we'll be right back.
SpeakerCalling all adult ocean lovers, join us at After Hours, the one evening each month when adults take over the Seattle Aquarium. At this 21 Plus event, you can experience our habitats at night, taste delicious food and drinks, enjoy special programming, and more. Find more info, plus upcoming dates and themes at SeattleAquarium.org slash after hours. And now back to the show.
Speaker 1All right, and we are back. So I really want to dig into some sea dragon specifics because looping back to the Ruby Sea Dragon, Ruby Sea Dragons are one of a few different kinds of sea dragons. So can you give us kind of a rundown of sea dragon species first to set us up if if we're not familiar?
Speaker 2Absolutely. So there are three known species of sea dragons that live in Australia. The weedy or common sea dragon is found across like most of the temperate Australia, so sort of from Perth around the bottom, round Tasmania and up to Sydney. The leafy sea dragon, which is a species that has sort of more elaborate appendages and leafy bits, that lives around uh Western Australia, southern Western Australia, and in South Australia. And then the third species is the ruby sea dragon, which is more closely related to the common or weedy sea dragon, and tends to live in deeper water. So divers would tend to encounter the the weedy sea dragon or the or the leafy sea dragon, but not necessarily the ruby sea dragon.
Speaker 1Gotcha. How much deeper is deeper when it comes to how deep?
Speaker 2Very, very good question. So we still don't know a lot about where ruby sea dragons live. We don't know a lot about them in general, but we think they tend to live sort of from a around the 50 meter mark and and deeper. We don't know how deep. And we know that some common sea dragons can live at least to 45 meters. So that there may be some overlap with those species in nature. We're not sure. Yeah. So deeper than recreational divers tend to go, I guess.
Speaker 1Yeah, for sure. The the the 50 meter, I can do that in my head into feet. Because that roughly three times three. So, you know, about 150 feet. So that would definitely be quite a bit deeper to be able to go down and see some of these or to find those sea dragons. So that might is that tied to why we don't know that much about them? Because it sounds like when when were they first identified? Like, sounds like that was more recent.
Speaker 2Yeah, so definitely I think the reason that we miss them for so long was because divers didn't see them. Definitely. So it was really only when some exploratory work was happening with the slightly deeper areas, and there were some sort of collaborative cruises or expeditions that were looking at the biodiversity down in that area, and a specimen was collected and put in the Western Australian Museum. But it was thought to be a weedy sea dragon, just a deep one. Gotcha. And it was only when we were doing the genetics work that we got actually uh a tissue sample from that animal and saw that its DNA looked like similar enough to be sea dragon, but really different. And we were like, hang on, what is this sample that's ruining our data set and looking very strange? Um and so that was the first look we saw of a Ruby sea dragon was actually its DNA. Um weird kind of way to think about them. But then we, of course, contacted the museum and said, My gosh, can we double check where that one came from and look at a photograph and then came back to that specimen? And that's why collections are so important, too, to connect, you know, data and a specimen. That you could go back to and verify and keep studying. And I think that's yeah, really, they're really very precious to biodiversity research. And uh then we saw our first Ruby in a collection.
Speaker 1Have there, do you know, has there been, you know, like ROVs or anything that have captured them like on camera, alive, doing, doing their thing at at 50 plus meters down in the ocean? Or are we still working with just some some specimens that that have been collected over time?
Speaker 2Well, now that we've been talking for a bit, you know how curious I am. As if I was gonna let that go. 100%. That became like my life's mission. And we uh we set up an expedition to go and take an ROV and go to exactly where that specimen had been collected and look for it. And we did that, I think, a year after we had described the species as new.
Speaker 1And did you find it?
Speaker 2And it was an epic adventure.
Speaker 1I am like I am on the edge of my seat. I'm like, yes or no, did you find the sea dragon?
Speaker 2Yes, we nearly didn't. Like it's it's really a very remote part of southern Western Australia, and you know, it's it's kind of expensive to put up an expedition. And we had the boat for about five days, or maybe maybe it was seven, but like it's two days commuting, right? So it took a day to get out there, and and it was terrible. We had these incredible big swells coming up from the Southern Ocean, and so the first couple of days we couldn't do anything, and we were just hiding behind this big island and hoping to have a go. And I think one day we tried a bit and couldn't get there. And the the second last day we went back to we got to the site, but when we put down the ROV, even at 50 meters, the swells were just smashing it around and we couldn't hold it still on the bottom. So I was like, oh my god, this is terrible. We're never gonna know. And the very last day we put it down. We did one kind of run, so we go until the essentially till the GoPro batteries run out. We brought it back up, put the batteries back in, and put the ROV down. And as soon as it hit the bottom, like, oh my gosh, we're just gonna have to end. Like, it's just unbelievable. Anyway, he fixed it and it the ROV popped off the bottom, cruised along, and after a couple of minutes, we saw one straight away. And it was just amazing. It was the most amazing moment. And uh, and that dragon we followed it, and then it led us to a second individual, and so we just kind of like discreetly followed them around for a little while, but yeah, just on the last day, so we were so lucky. We found this kind of needle in this giant ocean. It was unbelievably lucky. I mean, yeah, still still can't believe we did it.
Speaker 1I was like, if anybody is listening out there and wants to make like a documentary about this, I feel like you've got this is good storytelling and really, really exciting. I'm I'm so happy for you, first of all, that you get to find and see your Ruby Sea Dragon. And it's still, it just like it's part of why I I I love science. Like we are we are still learning so much. There's just there's just always something. There's always something new, there's something that that we haven't quite tapped into yet. So knowing a little bit more, knowing that this Ruby sea dragon exists, but where they are, that we've we've finally seen them. And one of them even led you over to their their other sea dragon friend. I know I was like, I wanted to say friend, but you know, whatever. It's it's it's fellow sea dragon. I have a question that one of the audience had as well, because Ruby Sea Dragon, it's in the name, indicating that they're kind of red-ish in color. So do we have an idea? Like, is it is it just genetics that makes them red? Is there something special that's giving them that red color versus like the leafy or the weaties? It seems kind of prominent.
Speaker 2Yeah, they are distinctively quite red. We don't know how I guess how they produce that coloration, but we believe the reason that they are colored in that way is for camouflage. Uh, you know, the shallow water species have these leafy appendages that help them blend into their algal sort of habitats. But the where the ruby lives is more kind of very low-relief sponges, and there is a little bit of algae, but not very much. So red is of course the first colour to be absorbed by water, and so you know, if you go, you know, deeper and deeper and deeper, so red disappears, and you would actually kind of look black. So we think it's actually a camouflage mechanism. It's it's a hypothesis, yeah, yeah. But it seems to make sense, and they don't have those leafy bits, so kind of makes sense.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was like, that it makes sense to me. I always think about those animals that have like that red and orange coloration that are at depth. It's like it's like having almost like an invisibility cloak that's just like wrapped around them. Like they just, if you don't have light shining on them, they just blend in perfectly to, you know, this really kind of neutral black, gray, blue background that they live in. And so it seems like it would not be an advantage, but it it is at depth in the ocean. So little shadows, yeah, little sea dragon shadows just lurking along in the rocks. All right. Well, with that, unfortunately, we're getting close to having to wrap up. However, I do have one final question for you. Being the sea dragon, like lover that you are, and I really I love how excited you are about these these creatures. Do you have a favorite species, dare I ask? Do you have a favorite individual, knowing that you've gotten to know and identify some individual sea dragons? Is there who who's at the top of the list if you have to pick one today? Just today. You could change your mind tomorrow. You don't have to do it.
Speaker 2I do all the time. Yeah. Yes. So firstly, I'm just gonna say before we move away from Ruby's altogether, that if people want to see that footage of the live Ruby Sea Dragon, if you go on YouTube and just search Ruby Sea Dragon First Glimpse in the Wild, we put that up there so everyone can check them out. So it's it's a bit grainy, but you know, hey, it's it's cool. So check it out.
Speaker 1I know what I'm doing after this podcast.
Speaker 2Yeah, not right now. My favorite of all the sea dragons would be the Weedy Sea Dragons. I just think they're beautiful, and they have these incredible dot patterns on them, and they just they almost look like an Aboriginal painting. They're just absolutely beautiful, and yeah, I like them the best for sure.
Speaker 1All right, all right. I I do think it's really the the the weedy versus leafy. I think like you could make a strong case for either of them. Um but I I like I like that you went weedy, and I can't really say why. I I think it's because a lot of people go leafy, because I think like they're they're sort of just yeah, but they are. I was like their adornments, like they're they're very flashy and they just have so much to the way they look and appear, where weaties are a little bit more simple, but I would agree that like that patterning that they have is so intricate. So if you really slow down and look at them up close, you see something that just that those those natural patterns that exist is absolutely beautiful. So all right. Well, I won't hold you to it. You can change your mind tomorrow if you'd like. But with that, it is time for us to wrap up. Um, and so that is it for this Lightning Strikes Trice. Narrath, thank you so much for being here. It was just an absolute pleasure to talk with you today, and I'm excited to have expanded my own knowledge about Ruby Sea Dragons. And in addition to looking up that video, if people want to learn more, is there anywhere you want to direct them to where they can find out more information about sea dragons or the work that you've been doing?
Speaker 2Yeah, probably the easiest place to start would be seadragonsearch.org. And that kind of outlines our project, but has also additional information about research and things that we know about sea dragons. So that's probably the easiest.
unknownGreat.
Speaker 1All right, done and done. I like I like simple. Simple's good. Well, with that, thank you so much to our listeners for joining us today. Please keep an eye out for our next regular lightning talks. And until then, everybody, stay curious.